Who owns AI in City Hall?

Khullani Abdullahi (00:01.565) Good morning, good afternoon, good evening, welcome to the AI in Chicago podcast. I'm your host, Kulani Abdullahi. Today I have the privilege of talking with George Cardenas, the Commissioner and Chairman of the Cook County Board of Review and a candidate for mayor of Chicago. Chicago's next mayor takes office in May 2027, facing a projected budget gap north of a billion dollars, an electricity market whose prices have climbed roughly 50% in two years. A data center fight that has reached the mayor's desk this month, and a city government that published an AI roadmap but then didn't execute it. Commissioner Cardenas is a Navy veteran and accountant who spent 20 years in the City Council and now chairs the Cook County Board of Review and is running for mayor on serious management. He joins AI in Chicago to answer a question no candidate in this race has been asked in public. What does a mayor actually do about artificial intelligence? Cardenas also comes to this conversation with something unusual. Of the declared field, he's the only candidate on record committing to put AI inside a government decision that determines what people owe. His own office is property tax appeals. In his words, AI assists to review tools while maintaining human oversight. This episode takes that commitment seriously and falls. Folllows it all the way to City Hall. This is the second conversation in our mayoral candidate series. Commissioner Cardenas came to Chicago from Durango, Mexico as a boy, graduated from Lane Tech, and enlisted in the US Navy to pay for his education. He earned an undergraduate degree in accounting and a master's in political science from Northeastern Illinois University, and then spent more than a decade. In accounting, auditing, and consulting roles at Fortune 500 companies, including Teneco and Ameritech. He was elected alderman of the 12th board in 2003 and served nearly 20 years chairing the Committee on Health and Environmental Protection, and later the Council on Environmental Protection and Energy, chairing the City's Council Latino Caucus, and serving as deputy floor leader under Mayor Lightfoot. Khullani Abdullahi (02:19.975) He authored Chicago's bottled water tax and in 2020 put the question of citywide broadband access on the ballot, where it passed with roughly 90% of the vote. In 2022, he was elected to the Cook County Board of Review, the three-member body that adjudicates property tax appeals across roughly 2 million parcels. He won renomination in March 2026 and launched this campaign for mayor in June. on a platform of physical discipline, procurement reform, and what he calls compassionate competence. Commissioner Cardenis, welcome. George A Cardenas (03:01.026) Well, thank you. Thank you. And I I welcome the invite. let me just say that I am glad to be here and gonna talk in nauseum about AI. And I want to be clear, I mean AI is not a substitute for government by any means. and as you said, you know, it is a tool. and if you are using technology and you're using some aspects of AI, which a lot of people are now. It is simply a tool. and you have to check your the results and you have to check to see make sure that that's accurate. But nevertheless, it's a tool that a lot of people are using and getting used to, and the technology is getting better by the day. but it's really a tool for making government work for me. What I wanted, I wanted I wanted to to to do something beneficial for government. Khullani Abdullahi (03:45.212) Excellent. Khullani Abdullahi (03:54.589) Yeah. George A Cardenas (03:55.819) Identify quickly some things that the eye cannot see, identify things where you know things are falling through the cracks. And you know, in instead of hiring an entire audit team, very expensive Manju, to kind of sift through records, we can probably use some tools to be able to screen search and be able to identify that without much without much problem. so you know, I want to focus on that. You know, accountability to me is is kind of the the the main driver in everything I do. you just kind of enumerated my long record in service since military days, and I really haven't stopped. I feel like Forrest Gump of politics. I keep running Khullani Abdullahi (04:26.184) Yeah. Khullani Abdullahi (04:29.883) Excellent. George A Cardenas (04:48.212) So, and it's simply because to me it's always been a challenge. I've always been and I was felt like somehow I was behind for some reason. And I just needed to catch up. I needed to get to the next level. I needed to get to the next exercise and had to finish my my school after having been in the military. You know, and all of that, Khullani Abdullahi (04:48.306) Yeah. George A Cardenas (05:12.032) it it made me hungry and it just I just never stopped. I like to learn, I like to help, I like to contribute, and I like to excel. And so that sort of permeates throughout my career and also my service. Khullani Abdullahi (05:27.731) But of everything on your resume, the Navy, the auditing, the accounting work, the years on the floor, the board of review, when you are making decisions nowadays, what what do you reach for in your experience and in your past? George A Cardenas (05:45.683) well, I reach for the things that that really made a difference for me and I think that it can make a difference for for the whatever is it that I'm doing and the people that I'm serving. And discipline for me was very, very key component early on as a young man. To understand that without discipline, I was not going to get to the things that I wanted to accomplish. So in the military, there was a lot of temptations. There was a lot of things when you were a young kid, a lot of things come your way. But you need to be disciplined and you need to have goals and apply that to where you want to go. And so to me, it was very critical for me to make my commitment, complete that commitment. to the military. And then our agreement was you serve and we'll pay for your education. And to me it was a fair it was a fair contract that I was that I was taking on and I took that and and another piece of it that I didn't know at the time, but it paid also for the master's program. Khullani Abdullahi (06:43.24) Yeah. George A Cardenas (06:55.788) So it was all in one. And I think it was the best decision that I ever made at that time as a young man. I think that was for me knowing that I would have struggled with work, duties, family and all that while trying to get to the next to the next to the next level, next chapter. So discipline's definitely the driver for me. it still is. And you know, I I take it Khullani Abdullahi (07:14.664) Right. George A Cardenas (07:24.577) I take it to heart. Khullani Abdullahi (07:25.967) Excellent. So you launched this campaign by saying Chicago doesn't need magical thinking. It needs serious management. And I think this is kind of the key issue that the next mayor of Chicago will who will be serving 2027 to 2031. that mayor's office is gonna have to decide how much of the region's power gets sold to data centers, whether the city's own systems make decisions about hiring and permitting and policing. George A Cardenas (07:34.488) To that. George A Cardenas (07:42.286) Mm. Khullani Abdullahi (07:54.545) what happens to the downtown property tax base, when automation arrives. So how do you think about this? Is the next mayor of Chicago an AI mayor, whether they want to be or not? And if you think that's right, what's the first item that's top of mind for you? George A Cardenas (08:08.909) Well George A Cardenas (08:13.73) Yeah, I think the next the next mayor is gonna be an AI mayor. I mean everything that that that's sort of combing through systems right now are being impacted by AI one way or another. And so it is it is imperative for us to understand it and imperative for us to prepare for what comes next. and that's what I plan to do when I become mayor. Khullani Abdullahi (08:42.867) So do you have a position and some views on how would you how you would approach the adoption of this technology? Whether it's for would you have a moratorium on the data centers? Would you leverage AI in the gunshot detection procurement awards? would you embed it in the property assessments as you've suggested? George A Cardenas (09:11.276) Well we've tried let me just go back to let me just talk about property tax and how well well what would happen there. one of the commissioners at the board that lost her election just in the primary had introduced something of an AI tool. they called it a STAR program. I don't know the exact acronym, the meaning of it, but I thought it was so it was an algorithm that you know tried to Khullani Abdullahi (09:16.678) Mm. George A Cardenas (09:41.951) you know, predict if you will, what the increase try to determine the increase of the assessment process would be on any particular pin. And so the algorithm would choose and based on a value would read through you know, thousands of these pins, and then would give you a result of sort of a false positive saying, yeah, there was an increase, but not enough to to you know for a reduction to occur. so is that is that something that should happen in in the board review and the answer for us was no because you need a human Khullani Abdullahi (10:18.663) Right, right. George A Cardenas (10:32.234) a hand to understand a little more the interest intricacies of of valuation. and it is simply fallacious to just go and and apply a tool that automatically assigns a value to all of the pins at the same time without looking at the detail and the particulars of that property. Khullani Abdullahi (10:54.675) Yeah. George A Cardenas (10:57.658) because there a lot of properties are different. They could have the same score footage, but there could be other things happening in that property that merits a a a review and potential a reduction in the assessment that it has gotten. So, you know, it it's not gonna solve all the problems. You're not you know you don't want to apply AI to every particular decision that you're making because it's not going to be a hundred percent accurate or a hundred percent of what you want it to be. fairness is it's it's an issue and I don't think AI, you know, would be a good measure of fairness when it comes to that type of a review and activity. Khullani Abdullahi (11:36.719) Excellent. So you have nine pillars and your policy papers across fiscal discipline, procurement, public safety, housing, the marketing meter, buyout, et cetera. It how would you prioritize some of these policy pillars? and where do you think a mayor should spend their attention? Excuse me. George A Cardenas (11:45.752) Yeah. George A Cardenas (11:56.271) So we we just we just we just got done I just got done with a with a interview yesterday on safety. I actually have it right next to me. our work and a safety document that we will be releasing sometime next week is called Safe Chicago. And Safe Chicago takes in three pillars that's prevention, intervention, and consequences. Khullani Abdullahi (12:04.763) Mm. George A Cardenas (12:25.354) So and to me, it's probably I would say the number one. I and I always say physical discipline is the number one, but honestly, the more you you review, the more you think about it in terms of spend, how much money we spend on public safety, in terms of how it impacts our economy, how it impacts our psyche, how it impacts our mental health, trauma and everything else, safety has to be the number one issue that we have to get a hold of and manage properly. in this city. And and it's part of that fiscal discipline because if you manage that, then you're going to be managing the resources that are going to be needed to tackle these huge problems. Khullani Abdullahi (13:06.973) Right. Excellent. so in so none of the the candidates in this election for mayor have added an AI pillar to their stack of policy positions. Would you consider adding an AI pillar to your platform? George A Cardenas (13:25.934) Yes, I mean, you know, I think it's a fair observ observation to be honest. and it's not there because I don't believe in it. It just it's not there because I usually I and I not usually, but I know originally treated it as an as a tool, as an enabling technology, as I mentioned before, across all the pillars that I talk about, rather than a standalone policy. So for me, it's embedding AI throughout the ecosystem that I'm that I'm deploying. Khullani Abdullahi (13:36.722) Yeah. Khullani Abdullahi (13:42.161) Right. Yeah. George A Cardenas (13:56.159) Because that's what's going to be a progression of success across a whether it's fiscal discipline, my procurement strategy or reform. So if we really apply that across the spectrum, it gets better and better and better. It's almost like creating a tool. And I do that because I'm I'm like I said I'm a tech, if I'm working on a project, you know, I first created. Khullani Abdullahi (14:08.081) Right. Right. George A Cardenas (14:18.978) you know, maybe through some coding mechanisms, Python or some other sorts, programs. and then as I'm thinking about it, I I I create the framework and then I add pieces to it. So it's a progression of things that are happening. And every time that I think about something, it's an improvement. Because maybe I missed something. Maybe there's a tool that I could that could read better or give me the that stat a little bit better with clearer understanding. So to me is always an evolution of things. And this is what's going to happen with AI and and how I will govern and implement efficiency throughout each of the steps that I that I that I talk about managing. Khullani Abdullahi (14:58.523) Yeah. Excellent. So you know, budget is always top of mind for for mayors. You've talked about fiscal discipline. So in twenty twenty-six, Chicago closed its twenty twenty-six budget partly by raising the personal property lease tax on cloud and software from eleven percent to fifteen percent. That garnered the city about four hundred and fifteen million dollars. It's the second largest revenue line in the budget. If we think about how this tax operates, it is a tax on every business in the city that buys computing. and the need for computing is only going to increase. You have pledged, no new taxes. How are you thinking about this line item? Are you going to keep it? If you do keep it. George A Cardenas (15:39.159) Mm-hmm. Khullani Abdullahi (15:48.667) you know, how do you think about attracting companies that are deciding between headquartering in Chicago or Columbus, for example? but if you decide to cut it, would you and how would you think about replacing it? George A Cardenas (16:02.872) Let me just say that being a management consultant and accountant, I would not walk into the office of the mayor. And irresponsibly eliminate hundreds of millions of dollars in revenue before replacing it. Not that you don't want to do that, but before replacing it, the responsibly thing to do is to say, okay, great, I don't agree with this tax. I think it should be measured more. And so if that happens, what's the replacement? What am I gonna do different? So Yeah, by the same token, I don't believe that a fifteen percent tax on digital infrastructure increasingly and businesses it's a good long term strategy from a development strategy development standpoint. So my my approach would be different. You know, I would first stabilize, as I mentioned, the city's finances because that's what I want to do. This is the whole point of launching a a platform that has nine pillars, it has fiscal discipline at the top, public safety right next to it, and saying we have to figure this out. It isn't about increasing taxes, about it's about managing, managing those resources. And from those savings, we're going to tackle the the the you know the most neediest of the needs in our city. So Once those savings are generated, whether it's from procurement or from workforce management, vacancies, overtime, technology, and asset management, and as those savings become recurring and audible, then we create room for reducing taxes that discourage investment. That to me is a strategy. Khullani Abdullahi (18:01.563) Yeah. Yeah. Excellent. so in the city of one thing I will note is that it's the one line revenue line item in the city of Chicago's budget that actually overperformed, right? So it was it delivered about forty million dollars above projection. So if you do become our mayor, I don't envy you. Yeah. George A Cardenas (18:23.119) But why yeah, but why do you think it ev overperforms? Because our economy's shifted. we you know we consume more shows than ever than ever and and streaming platforms. Khullani Abdullahi (18:29.264) Yes. Khullani Abdullahi (18:35.951) Right. Yeah. George A Cardenas (18:39.02) We can't seem get we can't seem to get enough of of streaming platforms. There's like seven, eight of them and I think there's even more. you have your traditional Netflix and Prime and and Hulu and and then when you go to sports, not only you have SBN, you have Foo, you have, you know, five, six different sports apps that sign up to kind of give you the same thing to be honest. I just don't understand why there's so many of so that's where the economy's it's going. Khullani Abdullahi (18:58.258) Right. Khullani Abdullahi (19:03.133) Right. George A Cardenas (19:07.872) in part because it's also added and embedded by AI. AI is having the ability to churn out more content faster and and more efficient and more cost effective. Khullani Abdullahi (19:12.891) Right. Khullani Abdullahi (19:23.601) Yeah. so Chicago close so I think that that is all correct and I agree. we're having a recent issue with I think data centers both at the at the state level and the city level, which I'm sure you've seen. We have 39 data centers inside the city limits. Earlier this year, our current mayor, Mayor Johnson, signed an executive order on data center safeguards and asked city council for a temporary moratorium. There hasn't been a vote yet. Your former colleague Alderman Viegas called that a political stunt and pointed at the property tax revenue and the construction jobs. Meanwhile, comment supply price is up roughly 50% in two years. and our own independent market monitor attributed last summer's capacity price spike to data center demand. You've said that data tells you where the fault lines are. so how are you thinking about the kinds of megawatts you'd approve? What are the conditions, whether it's on-site generation? Are you thinking about water caps, ratepayer indemnification? and you arrive, you know, May 2027, how are you thinking about this moratorium ordinance as it reaches your desk? George A Cardenas (20:36.57) Mm-hmm. George A Cardenas (20:43.098) Well, I can tell you that, you know, if you really think about the problem, and if you're talking about megawatts, just saying zero megawatts of unconditioned new load, you know, I would not I would not meet you there. and so I'm not going to big an arbitrary number of megawatt without really having a conversation with Comad, with PGM, with the you know the the stakeholders if you will and also without looking at rate payer impact data w which i know is real and folks are paying more because there's a supply and demand imbalance and it was excuse me it's an imbalance because of CI and and the environmental rules that were set in place years ago when I was an alderman. I was I you mentioned I was chair of health and environments, I know plenty of about about it. but but it was it was done in design because of climate change, because we wanted to do something about climate change, it was the right thing to do. But you no one no one anticipated the growth of data centers and the growth of new technologies like AI to eat away and eat at so much power that we had begun to change out in a transition Way, but not in a rapid transition way. So we added some some megawatt capacity by you know renewable energy, but renewable energy is not a replacement for the hard asset that was in nuclear power, if you will. It just there's not you can't generate enough enough of that, enough of the new power. to meet the demands of today. And I think we just need to be cognizant of that and probably make some changes to our our demand. George A Cardenas (22:45.368) problems and say we maybe we need to increase capacity. No, there'll be other ways because we are getting better, our technology is getting better, and battery storage is getting better distributing power through those channels. So I am also energized by the fact that new technologies will probably meet some of that demand, maybe most of the demand eventually, but we need to have that transition. and you know so Khullani Abdullahi (22:46.578) Yeah. Khullani Abdullahi (23:07.453) Right. Yeah. Excellent. George A Cardenas (23:12.864) you know to just to close, Chicago should not subsidize private hyp hyperscale computing centers as data centers. I mean I I I believe that. I think that we need to find a a a happy medium. Khullani Abdullahi (23:24.561) Yeah. I there's i I always find that the focus on megawatts is I think the wrong focus. I think in some ways it's a red herring. Like if and this is just a suggestion for my universe, the COM ed spent three billion dollars in twenty twenty one since twenty twenty one just connecting the large loads. And the deposits covered only about a quarter of it. The rest of it went to everyone else's delivery charge. So, my recommendation if you take this on as mayor of Chicago in 2027 is I would actually intervene at the ICC level, which no mayor has ever done, and talk about the full cost assignments, right? So that the large load connections are not paid for by Chicago taxpayers, especially because even when George A Cardenas (24:11.362) Mm-hmm. Khullani Abdullahi (24:11.909) they're building new data centers across northern Illinois. Chicago ratepayers pay for those interconnections, even though the data centers are not in our boundaries. So I think you have some options as mayor. Yeah. George A Cardenas (24:22.146) Yeah. I don't know. I I I hundred percent. And by the way, once I once once I become mayor, I'm one of those persons that gets prepared with all kinds of data. And I'm going to go to every stakeholder, every decision maker. and I talked about Comet and you know PJM, but also the ICC, right? Where decisions are made and where they also need to understand what's happening on the ground. Khullani Abdullahi (24:34.737) Yeah. Khullani Abdullahi (24:46.483) Mm-hmm. George A Cardenas (24:52.438) and and get serious about their role in this regulated industry and and how to alleviate what's happening on the ground. That is their responsibility. It is that's their responsibility to to understand it and also plan and working with these energy providers Khullani Abdullahi (25:03.463) Right. Right. Right. George A Cardenas (25:17.364) so that we can have more more supply. you can't just simply come to the ICC and want more money without having to play it in terms of how you want to manage and stabilize the cost of energy. Khullani Abdullahi (25:24.027) Right. Khullani Abdullahi (25:30.459) Yeah, and subsidize those connections. I think that's that's excellent. so your fiscal plan projects two point three point two point three five billion in recovery. you're not emphasizing any new taxes, and you have a large share of that focused on efficiency. So you will be focused on departmental gains. I really love this idea of the 25% procurement savings. I think we can all agree. George A Cardenas (25:33.678) Correct. Khullani Abdullahi (25:58.371) City and state government do not purchase software well in general, unless you're very, very focused and diligent on that. 150 million from workforce savings. So I think the challenge for citizens is they'll say, we hear about efficiency promises all the time. So tell me and our the citizens of the city, how are you thinking about efficiency? How's your background in auditing kind of preparing you for delivering on these efficiency promises? George A Cardenas (26:26.126) Khullani Abdullahi (26:27.99) that the city has heard before. George A Cardenas (26:30.968) Well, it's it's it's an entirely redo of the system, right? I'm proposing a new, an entirely new operating system. so when I talk about getting in there and unraveling some of the things and some of the habits that have been there for decades and decades, if not the beginning of time, then you start with getting somebody in there who is it's never been done. what I call the office Khullani Abdullahi (26:38.907) Mm-hmm. George A Cardenas (27:00.972) of of the Auditor General, which is the up the the mayor's office of the Auditor General. And there is somebody like in I used to do my first job out of college, I was an auditor for Centel Corporation. And I would I would I was sent I would be sent to all the subsidiaries of Centel throughout the United States, really about nine states or so. Nevada was one of them, Carolinas, Florida. Khullani Abdullahi (27:21.235) Mm. George A Cardenas (27:27.554) in parts of the Midwest. And I would be sent to look at these subsidiaries, see how they were operating. And we look at the revenue cycle, we look at the expense cycle as well, and find holes and say, you know, why is your inventory at this level and why you're spending so much money on this particular commodity? And you know, we we just need some answers. so for me, establishing and recreating the whole thing is is paramount to get to where where we want to get to, to that 2.3 billion fiscal question at the end of my term. and the only way you do that. Khullani Abdullahi (28:03.357) Right. George A Cardenas (28:06.708) is by understanding what's in front of you, by being more judicious, by looking at contracts, looking at the fine print, who's performing, who's not performing, who's taking advantage of the system. You know, you're talking about upsetting a lot of people. Khullani Abdullahi (28:22.952) Yeah. You're ready for it. Excellent. so in your board, so you are one of the few, I think, candidates who's talked about AI in your in your from your current role, right? So on the Board of Review questionnaire this year, you listed as a top priority. You were you were thinking about expanded data analytics and AI res assisted review tools to improve that uniformity and similarity and situate in similarly situated properties. George A Cardenas (28:44.77) Mm. Sure. Khullani Abdullahi (28:53.707) you've also said as an advocate that an appeal should not require legal expertise or insider knowledge. how are you if how are your commitments to putting AI inside of these decision-making apparatuses evolving? How are you thinking about what the tools do and the role of the human? George A Cardenas (29:10.316) Well it let me just say, yeah, absolutely. Line, I I wanna I wanna be clear and people can are are in this podcast understand that you know AI is not gonna determine your taxes. so Khullani Abdullahi (29:17.299) Mm-hmm. George A Cardenas (29:26.24) AI is going to be, as I said, the tool that's going to be able to analyze the appeal a lot faster and a lot and a lot more accurate, giving you a glimpse of several analyses of different pins at the same time and alerting you of any discrepancies in that analysis cycle. AI is going to give you that advantage because it's going to go sift through your data quicker and more efficiently than your eyes will, but you ultimately are going to have to make the decision. whether that's correct or not. But that's a tool, phenomenal tool, for you to get through that review, understand that the accuracy was was was dead on, and then apply that to every other decision that you need to make so that we can sift through, you know, two hundred and fifty thousand appeals that we usually get at the board, because people feel That the property tax system is broken. And of course they they're gonna have to appeal. They just can't believe those numbers be true. and a lot of times they're not. So it is a huge responsibility. but I think AI is gonna be very beneficial and very helpful in giving our folks the tools to look at comps right away, to pick them, to sift through them, and for the for the tool to kind of pop up and say, This is the this is the comp that I would use, and therefore your decision it le it seems would lead to a decrease more than anything. Would never increase, but it would lead to a decrease based on the analysis, sifting through that and saying, this is what I think by you looking at this, this is what your decision probably would be. And then you say, Yep, I agree. George A Cardenas (31:17.36) and make your notes and move on to the next. Khullani Abdullahi (31:20.787) I'll give you context for I think where the city of Chicago fits. So it for what's actually possible. So San Jose, a similar peer city, has trained more than a thousand city employees to build their own AI tools. Boston has published guidance three years ago. And Chicago has an AI roadmap that is supposed to have an AI lead, that is supposed to issue employee guidelines and publish a use case inventory. It appears from public reporting that there is no evidence that any of these three things have happened. Would you publish as mayor a citywide AI use case inventory? Would you name an AI lead in your first 100 days? How would you position that person to report into city government? Would they go through technology, the council, the general office, or the legal office, or would they report to you? George A Cardenas (32:12.278) Hmm. George A Cardenas (32:16.792) Well, let me just say this that within my I would say yes and within my first hundred days, I would designate a chief of AI and a digital transformation officer, that would be working with the current CIO and Corporation Council and the Inspector General and procurement and operating departments, and ultimately to be accountable to the mayor, to to me, right, for that implementation. Khullani Abdullahi (32:40.38) Mm-hmm. George A Cardenas (32:44.232) The CIO handles technology infrastructure, corporation council handles the legality, the DI officer, the governance and implementation of AI, and the mayor handles the accountability part. that's how I would handle that piece of it. Illinois law, so you know. specifically prohibits employment-related AI that produces discrimination against protected classes and requires notice in covered uses. the effective data believe was January 1st, 2026. so for me, compliance is going to be the floor, and trust was it's going to be the standard. Khullani Abdullahi (33:24.199) Right. Okay. Excellent. just as an as follow-up to your kind of your structure, would you I would you encourage workforce-wide AI training in city government? I think we have about 35,000 plus employees in the city of Chicago that would work for you. is that something that you would emphasize and partner with the chief AI officer to accomplish inside city government? George A Cardenas (33:54.379) Yeah, I I think it would be it's sort of gradual approach, to first understand, you know, the scale and to pilot certain initiatives to see what the yield is, what the impact is, and then show that across the spectrum of government so that people are there's a buy-in and there's a consensus in terms of how helpful this could be. I think certainly again, when I was in private, and consultant and in many roles, anytime you want to introduce something new, we did a pilot. if we were you know if I was in a Maritech and we were thinking about deploying a new modem technology, for example, of high speed data, we did a pilot with Motorola. Khullani Abdullahi (34:29.298) Right. George A Cardenas (34:43.62) loosened technologies at the time with Bay Networks. and that pilot allowed us to test out the equipment, test out the parameters of what we're trying to accomplish. the rollout, the legal ramification, so that in government you even have to do more than that because it's more stringent. There's so many rules you have to abide by. So it definitely a pilot gives you the roadmap and gives you the ability to to to see where this might be deployed in a bigger scale, but more importantly, by covering all the bases, you begin to essuch people and departments that are critical for the implementation of this important technology. So I would not rush it, but I would also not sit on it. Khullani Abdullahi (35:31.111) Right, right. Excellent. So your workforce pillar, which I looked at, back to your original point about rebuilding things, you're promising a modern HR system that is also going to be deployed citywide by day one hundred. you're gonna have predictive staffing models and scheduling optimization. So how are you thinking about the use of algorithms for the use of it used in performance? And and what does that look like if it also included in Cook County's property tax system? what makes 100 days like why that deadline for the overhaul of the modern HR system? George A Cardenas (36:14.35) Well, I I I think you have to come in and be bold about process. there there are a lot of things to consider, like I said I mentioned having the CIO, having the procurement office, or having the legal person review every move you make. it's gonna be critical because it's gonna you know, it's gonna be impacting credibility. if you fluff that then everything else is not going to matter because you you're not gonna go anywhere. The groups are the groups are going to be Khullani Abdullahi (36:18.792) Yeah. Khullani Abdullahi (36:39.666) Right. George A Cardenas (36:44.494) weighing in and i mean group stakeholders whether if you botch the implementation how do you expect any trust to to occur in the next phase or phases of what you're trying to accomplish so for for me the first hundred days is just a measuring stick i'm like okay this is where we need to go publish it and for me publishing everything dashboards and everything is critical Khullani Abdullahi (36:59.016) Right. George A Cardenas (37:11.266) That's that's really transparency. People want to see exactly what's going on. you know, if I can if I can build it in my website, then surely you can do it in the government, you know. we recently built a a fuel ops backend structure that's really just phenomenal, giving everybody the latest and best technology. statistics so that when you're on the field, there's no question in terms of what you have to do. in the next step and the next step, measuring every step of the way where you need to go to be efficient so you can maximize your time out there because you know time's of the essence, right? You if you're in the field, if you're in the campaign mode, you only have so many days left to the to to the end of the campaign. And so it's hurry up and analysis would be critical for you to understand that you're maximizing every step that you make out there. So for me that's that's how I know that I'm gonna be good Khullani Abdullahi (37:55.091) Yeah, right, right. George A Cardenas (38:13.904) that and measuring and making sure that my team has the best information, the best statistics, and they're gonna be really embolden to say, wow, I'm really making a difference. This is really helping me do my job better. and I'm helping the taxpayers of the city. there's gonna be pride in what they're gonna do because it's gonna be right in front of them, telling them, you know, measuring everything that they do. It's like, yeah, this is good. I just climb a certain percentage of if and whether it's this top border in terms of you know, receiving data or pushing data out or information to somebody, it's nice to know that you know that you're doing something well. Khullani Abdullahi (38:53.799) Yeah. Speaking of efficiencies, speaking of procurements, which I think are two areas that you've highlighted throughout our conversation, there is five million dollars sitting in the budget for awarding gunshot detection contracts to nine different bidders. This has been us in a state of stasis for 19 months. Secretary Gianales. And Secretary Kelly say restore it. Holberg wants a broader census sensor network. University of Chicago researchers have found priority 911 response times on the South and West sides improved by about four minutes after this system came out. This is all correlational data. City crime or violent crime across the city has been falling. So you've built a platform around procurement failures. efficiencies. Is this a procurement failure or a policy decision? Is it procurement paralysis? And in your first hundred days, what is going to happen to this entire debacle of gunshot detection technology procurement? And what evidence are you going to would change your mind in either direction? George A Cardenas (40:10.67) Well you could tell the procurement system needs an overhaul. so the criticism is legitimate, a hundred percent. you know the public reporting as you said in May said nine firms were under consideration after approximately nineteen month process, right? Khullani Abdullahi (40:15.19) Mm. George A Cardenas (40:29.174) and then yeah, nothing's happened. So and this is what frustrates Chicagoans. you've gone through all that. I mean 19 months is a year and year and a half, in or so in six months. and you know, not bitters, not not there's no technology, there's no strategy. either the technology meets the as the standard or it doesn't. You gotta make the decision. Really simple. Does it meet the Aboriginal standard that you set for Chicagoans? And if it does, then you make the decision. And that's what I would do. I would I just told you my you know my process, but I would quickly make a decision and let's go and let's test it out. Even if you pilot a thing. Let's do it. Let's see. Let's show the people what what it can do. and then we can deploy the the the next phase. if it's gonna reduce response times, why not? if if it's going to increase recovery of evidence, yeah, why not, right? is it going to improve victim location? We need that. Is it going to improve clearance rates? We also need that too, right? is it going to generate actionable intelligence? Be great if we have it. Any more intelligence, it's good better than not having it. so you gotta justify that local or that total life cycle cost to to to the taxpayers and the Chicaguans. So if the evidence says yes, then you you do it, you procure it, and you deploy it. And the evidence is no, then you don't. But paralysis is not, you know, it's not a decision. Khullani Abdullahi (42:05.087) Right. Khullani Abdullahi (42:17.733) Right. Excellent. Staying on the topic of law enforcement and expanding a little bit into immigration. So Chicago's a welcoming city. but we also have licensed plate reader network that we belong to. And it allows hundreds of out-of-state agencies to query without any penalties that database. and federal immigration agents operate facial recognition tools that our own Illinois police departments are. George A Cardenas (42:24.76) Yeah. Khullani Abdullahi (42:47.209) Barred from using. You also chaired the Latino caucus and served as vice chair of the Committee on Immigrant and Refugee Rights. I'm curious, would you guarantee or be committed to a no-city controlled camera, plate reader, or database feeding federal immigration enforcement? And would you back an ordinance requiring City Council approval of all new police surveillance technology? whether it uses AI or not before it is deployed. Increasingly they almost all use AI. George A Cardenas (43:21.336) Well, obviously we need legal precision on on in these questions. on anything on city control data, we need a consistent we need we need to be consistent consistent with the law and and the judicial process. you know and Chicago technology should not be converted into a backdoor immigration enforcement system a hundred percent. and as mayor You know, I'm going to protect Chicagoans from any threat, foreign and domestic. because that's really what it comes down to. this is our city. this is our residents, this is our problems, and we need to solve our own problems. Khullani Abdullahi (44:10.537) There's also precedent for this. So, Evanston, when they found out the data was reaching customs and border protection, they deactivated the cameras and moved to cancel the contract outright. So this isn't theoretical. There, you know, in the state of Illinois, we're seeing leaders already take this on. so excited to see you ensure that that division of data and privacy is there. So You also have, I think, a emphasis in your pillars on growth, right? On on jobs. and you have said, I think, in one of your campaign videos that your political base is a taxpayer. And it's the taxpayer who doesn't have more to give. It's the one who watches their property tax bill rise. and so in the loop office, which is a in the loop offices, there's a bunch of property tax, it's a large property tax base for the city of Chicago. interestingly enough, we're seeing AI exposed jobs actually increase in the last four years. That may not continue. If these roles in the loop are exposed to generative AI, and those roles actually decrease and the headcount decreases, and then the value of the property decreases. What is the mayor's move here? Well in a Cardenas administration. You know, you're four I'm your forty five year old financial services guy in the loop, you know, layoff start. How are you thinking about fiscal resilience and economic resilience for the city of Chicago if AI affects jobs? George A Cardenas (45:48.063) well you know I think the greatest mistake would be treating this technology as simply a technology issue. And it's an economic development issue. and our competitive advantage isn't cheap labor, it's human capital. and we show it in the finance sector, in insurance, in law, and healthcare, logistics, manufacturing. And professional services. so our strategy has to move Chicago workers up the AI value chain and not pretend the technology isn't coming. that's what we need to be doing. We need be planning and working with it to make our systems more resilient, more competitive. So let's go back to the economic development issue, not just simply jobs and the fact that AI is going to re you know reshape the landscaping so you know I would what would that see what would that AI workforce compact be? I would focus on AI literacy, cybersecurity, data analytics, healthcare technology, advanced manufacturing, logistics, skilled trades, supporting data infrastructure. small business AI adoption. I think small businesses can really use this technology because it makes them more competitive. Having the ability to do the things that this all this money would by you being more intentional, smarter, leaner, and more informed about all these processes. that to me it it's it's really I read I get up at five in the morning and I read. I'd read my George A Cardenas (48:09.954) My papers, I improve them, I get with my team and they're texting me at four thirty in the morning. Did you read this? Did you take a look at that? I'm re less you know, let's ready to meet in the morning. It's A nine ten and let's review the policy statement on whether it's safe Chicago or whether it's procurement. yeah, we're working on housing a couple of weeks ago. we're working right now on the Chicago Parking meters Khullani Abdullahi (48:39.637) Mm. George A Cardenas (48:40.489) decision of of of the buyout, the lease buyout, working on that, going through the numbers, understanding the the the analytics part of it. and you do that Khullani Abdullahi (48:47.775) Yeah. Your your position on the on the lease buyout has changed, right? On the parking meters. What's your current position on what Chicago should do on those park meters, especially with when you have this one point one six billion plus shortfall? How are you thinking about that? George A Cardenas (49:03.692) Yeah. Well, you know, I I I I wanted to I wanted to first understand the pieces. I won't I need to understand financially the cash flow. Is it cash flow enough? and it's partial obviously to to fund part of it. And then how would I account or how would I bring the rest of it, the rest of the money needed for the buyout? Because you know, the cash flow does not secure the entirety of the lease transaction. So you would need equity partners or need something else to to help. Khullani Abdullahi (49:16.412) Mm-hmm. Khullani Abdullahi (49:28.979) Yeah. George A Cardenas (49:35.969) You bridge that gap. Now, mind you, having those pieces and understand what the cash flow would be and what the interest payments would be over the remainder of the years, I think it's 57 years, and then say, okay, if I took this on, even though I'm paying four point billion something in interest payments, where is the end of the road? Where is the end of the tunnel for Chicago taxpayers? And our analysis found that I year on year thirty-five, we end up paying Khullani Abdullahi (49:37.427) Yeah. Khullani Abdullahi (49:46.376) Yeah. Khullani Abdullahi (49:59.178) Right. George A Cardenas (50:05.872) This transaction. And after that, it's free and clear for Chicagoans to recover the money lost, the revenue lost, and what they spent on buying out this other participant. Khullani Abdullahi (50:20.775) Excellent. George A Cardenas (50:21.056) So that's really what I focus on. And it's not so much that I changed my position, it's so much as I wanted to understand it better and get to the numbers that I could explain it to people and say, This is where I'm at. I think it should be done. Let's find a way to do it. is it an easy transaction? By no means at all. Because if the price changes, then obviously that's gonna impact. Khullani Abdullahi (50:34.419) Yeah. Right. Khullani Abdullahi (50:39.283) Yeah. Right. Right. George A Cardenas (50:48.256) where you're at on the equity piece of it because the cash flow is not going to generate enough to pay it. so that's important to understand. And then, you know, if all fails, if there's TIFF involved and there's pension the other pension funds that get involved in that, and somehow the political process runs to a halt, you still got leverage. You still got leverage you need to deploy because this is a approval that needs to happen by the city of Chicago. And what does that leverage mean? Well, remember we have to s I think it's called when you're squaring or the true ups that they talk about whenever some of these meters are taken out for for whatever reason. Let's say you're doing some work on the streets and so they're not using the meters, and we have to compensate the company. for the fact that those wieners are are sidelined for a little for for a while. So those tri-ups are expensive to the city. So I think we need to leverage that as well. You know, worse it either way, we want to come out of this with a winning bid. Either way, we need to do something for the taxpayers. and I think they'll appreciate that. Khullani Abdullahi (51:45.65) Out of commission. Yeah. Yeah. Thank you. Khullani Abdullahi (52:03.793) Excellent. So I have a few lightning round questions and then I want to give you a few minutes to give your closing remarks on the importance of a car dentist's administration and to give people you know of an insight into kind of your overall vision. So we'll do some quick questions and then the floor will be yours. So is there a task in city government that you'd be comfortable handing to a machine tomorrow and then one that you would never hand to a AI. George A Cardenas (52:35.022) Something that I would hand to a machine George A Cardenas (52:43.02) I think I'm gett it's getting better, but it's not quite there yet. I think scheduling is getting pretty close to I can say I can with confidence that in the morning my schedule is pretty much arranged the way I want it. organizing my files it's something that I would definitely hand to a to a tool. Khullani Abdullahi (52:46.741) Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. Khullani Abdullahi (53:05.268) Yes. Khullani Abdullahi (53:08.853) Can George A Cardenas (53:11.33) to help me organize my files in a systematic way instead of me sifting through very personal data, I would definitely hand that over to a tool versus another human, to be honest. So I would do that. Khullani Abdullahi (53:24.115) Right. Excellent. Yeah. And is there an area of city government that you would never hand to a machine that you think should all be should be owned fully by our human leaders? Yeah. George A Cardenas (53:36.621) Yeah, the decision. You the humans gotta make the decisions. The tools are there advising them here's here's what I found, here's the analysis. Now you gotta make the decision. And you gotta ask all the questions, you gotta connect all the dots, and you know, brief all the stakeholders, what whatever you need to do to make sure that people are there's a buy-in and people are comfortable. Khullani Abdullahi (53:40.469) The final George A Cardenas (54:00.803) with those decisions or there's a consequence to those decisions. At the end of the day, it's gonna be your high, not anybody else. So I would definitely make it a decision. It would be paramount. Khullani Abdullahi (54:11.175) Excellent. you've been in Chicago politics for decades. What is an overused phrase in Chicago politics that you just would retire and never and never want to hear again? George A Cardenas (54:24.434) God, that's that that's a good one. What is something that I think all politicians there there's a lot. I I think that, you know, lately I my my team has been teasing me with this demand better. and I I say manage better and so both other people say demand better. and is the accountability part that to me makes a difference because if I demand, I'm not accountable. But if I manage, I'm accountable. Khullani Abdullahi (54:37.631) Mm-hmm. Khullani Abdullahi (54:42.324) Yeah. Khullani Abdullahi (54:49.205) Right. George A Cardenas (54:51.682) That's the difference between how I would say those two things. So I think there's some cliches that people are will use, but to me it's at the end of the day, where are you with accountability? And it's it's you know, the buck stops with you and nobody else. Khullani Abdullahi (54:54.282) Yeah. Khullani Abdullahi (54:59.999) Yeah. Yeah. what about in the AI universe? What are some words in AI conversations that you think are hype and are not useful for elected officials to be thinking of? George A Cardenas (55:13.518) what are the subtle you mean some of the AI in particular? Like you what do you mean what progressive revenue? What do you what do you what do you what's in your mind? Khullani Abdullahi (55:19.605) Phrases, yeah. Mm-hmm. Khullani Abdullahi (55:27.013) Any any any term that you hear often in the AI conversation that just drives you wild. George A Cardenas (55:35.131) I I I you know what? I almost said it here, but the progressive revenue sometimes gets into my head and I I'm trying to understand exactly what that means. Because revenue is revenue, right? I don't know that there's such a thing as progressive revenue. Right, or that's right, there's no such thing as yes, liberal revenue and then and then conservative revenue. I'm like, where does that come from? Khullani Abdullahi (55:41.45) Yeah. Yeah. What they mean. Khullani Abdullahi (55:52.373) Is it is it conservative and progressive? Yeah. Excellent. George A Cardenas (56:05.218) So that's one that I think we can get rid of. I I think we let's just be honest with folks and say, you know what? It's gonna take a village, it's gonna take the state, it's gonna take the federal government to change our tax laws, to to make it more you know more competitive for the working stiff. Other people use tools and businesses use LLCs, but the guy is earning a paycheck. Khullani Abdullahi (56:07.347) We could get rid of. Yeah. Exa. Khullani Abdullahi (56:16.307) Yeah. Yeah. Khullani Abdullahi (56:27.825) Yeah. Yeah. Right. George A Cardenas (56:33.504) It has no other option. They're gonna tax they're gonna take the tax right out of the paycheck. And the LC is gonna hide it, it's gonna is gonna do all kinds of tricks not to pay right up to right, not to pay it. That's that to me is where is where the crime is. I'm like, we gotta get to these LCs and we gotta get to this capital gains and change that. I think you know, a lot of folks the reason there's a dip a disparator, or at least a a huge divide. Khullani Abdullahi (56:37.299) Yeah. Yeah, there's optimization. Yeah. Yeah. Khullani Abdullahi (56:53.183) Right. George A Cardenas (57:00.15) is you had in Wall Street and you got Main Street and Wall Street has the whole dividend thing gain. They're paying fifteen percent and you're paying twenty eight percent on the top end on this end of the personal income tax. So that that's that's something's not right. Elon Musk doesn't get a salary because he doesn't he doesn't want to get taxed and gets it all on on on on the shares. And that's all capital gains. So well if you was take to you know to take some of that and and sell the shares, you don't it only it only pays capital gains. It does not pay Khullani Abdullahi (57:09.077) Yeah. Yeah. So something to talk about. Right. Khullani Abdullahi (57:28.009) Right. George A Cardenas (57:29.176) the the true tax that everybody else pays. So I think that's what needs to needs to get rid of need to change. Khullani Abdullahi (57:31.217) Everyone else praise. Excellent. And then you are a longtime resident of McKinley Park, I believe. Is there a favorite spot that you would recommend Chicagoans check out? George A Cardenas (57:45.133) Well, I mean if everybody loves tacos nowadays. Tacos is sort of the new hot dog. I ye right. Right. We we we went from for the Wiener Circle to Taco Tuesday. It was fast. So now it's Taco Tuesday and Taco Thursday and Taco Wednesday and you know, so I I so there's a place called Teo Louise in Bryant Park. Khullani Abdullahi (57:49.298) Yes, it is. As someone who loves tacos and does ta re taco Tuesday religiously, I live in West Town. Yeah. George A Cardenas (58:13.824) Literally across from McDonald's. it's on the thirty let's see, this is thirty hundred block. Pass western, between western and and rockwell, on your right hand side. Tia Louise. Great talk. Best talk is in Brent Park. Khullani Abdullahi (58:23.432) Okay. Excellent. Excellent. Tia Louise. Add. Love it. Excellent. the floor is yours. What what is your I'd love for you to give, you know, a few remarks on your case to to the city of Chicago and its residents for a Cardenas administration. George A Cardenas (58:45.494) I you know, I mean to recap, you know, we as as not just I want to I said thank our campaign and our team and so much man hours human capital has gone to create everything that we that we have and are deploying. and it's not e it's not easy, right? but I would go back and just kind of recap what we what I said in the beginning that know, the next mayor is gonna be an AI mayor. but I'll I'll I would also say that you know, AI it's not the solution or or it's it's trying to cr it's not in it's no it's not trying to cover up for mismanagement or decision making paralysis. There's no black box government that that I would think of in in my administration. The algorithm is not gonna get a vote. My decision will will matter. And then, you know, I do say that time and time again, before you ask taxpayers for another dollar, you must prove you're using what you got wisely. so I think you know that that's what I would leave you with. and AI will directly connect my management program and connect it across all the pillars. And we'll just gonna make sure that we are measuring and over being accountable to taxpayers and every and every in every one. Khullani Abdullahi (01:00:27.637) Excellent. Commissioner Cardenis, I want to thank you for taking the time to share your vision and your ideas with the AI in Chicago podcast and myself. I'm thankful for this conversation. George A Cardenas (01:00:38.851) Thank you and you know thanks Sabrina. I know she's she's she was handholding me the whole time, so that's good. Can I ask a question? Khullani Abdullahi (01:00:44.04) Excellent.